Thanks for recording this Damondo! =D

Only thing I really have to comment is on that Selyne did not say she was working on the guild 'About' and 'Policies' pages. In fact, Selyne said two or three times that she just copied them over from her World of Warcraft guild site and just removed the WoW specific parts (raid DPS/HPS requirements and such) and added the DK parts. The pages were quick placeholders while trying to get the site finished, and she needed help to write them. But she didn't get any help. =(

So... maybe we should all throw in things we'd like to see and then come to a consensus? Or, how did we decide this? Was someone in charge of the content?

Sorry, it's 4:30 in the AM and I just finished listening, I'm a little tired and my memory isn't the best atm. >.<

If you'd like me to come up with a quick about page for Kindred (like Divine and Bixies did), I can do that. I didn't know I was supposed to until now, sowwie!

Btw, joke all ya want, Jonn, but I indeed heard 20 mins of guild business and 45 mins of BSing. Just saying.

I do have a few comments after the meeting (and some thought):

Meetings
Yes we should really get the business done at these meetings first, then some can leave if they need to, and the others can "bond" more afterward.

Policies
I am the one that said you were working on the policies page Sel.
You put that one up and you were waiting on an OK or something to have them ratified (I guess that's what I thought)
Personally, I have no issue with what we already have.
Mandatory behavior requirements are something we have found to be necessary in every game we go into and should be required here. If even to just have something to fall back to when we have a "problem" member.

Bookmarks
It was also mentioned, a request for some type of bookmarker system for the forums. One that automatically returned you to where you left off on a thread when you returned to it was specifically requested. I do not know if such a mod exists but I will look. Selyne may have a better answer to this, and also there may be one included in the next version of the forums software. A mod now until the new one comes out is preferred.

Dues
I think at first we need to operate like Divine did in Aion.
That being those that want to contribute.
Have those contributions recorded and posted to the forums.

After we see what the in game economy is like, and what we would actually need to save up for we can decide if the contributions need to be stepped up any.
A mandatory, have to pay every week/month whatever, could be a game breaker for some. Personally I have a problem putting my in game cash towards anything I can not participate in.
Raid food/drinks/ammo like that should be the responsibility of the individual player attending.
Special "Items" if such exist, can be dealt with as we find out more.
However as an example: using money I have to farm to make my dues to gear up a tank for a party I will never have the chance to play with would not work.

Events
Should be planned with a goal in mind, and first contributions should be used to achieve that goal.
Event Officers can oversee asking for them, and managing them.
After that we could split up the remaining costs if any remain.
Events (for the most part) are things Everyone can attend and few will be limited by level requirement.
I have no problem whatsoever helping to pay for that.

I guess it will boil down to how easy it is to generate cash in game, and what kind of costs the "guild" money is used for.
I do not think we should talk about initiating mandatory anything at present.
Especially something that could keep players from joining us.
Once we see what is required and how hard it is to come by we should have a conversation about dues then.

Bottom line is, mandatory dues will cause some players to leave the guild.
Anything that can be seen as unbalanced in the way guild funds are spent will cause others to leave as well.
Basically we are playing FFXIV to relax and enjoy ourselves right?
Instating anything that could lower the level of enjoyment a player has should be looked at very closely before going forward with it.

Oh additionally I created user accounts and sent the information to our new recruitment officers so they will have access to the member survey control panel.
From there they can create a new survey (questionnaire) adjust the current one, and access all the filled out ones.
I will continue to update the linked pdf(s) posted to the forums for general guild member access.

Our Recruitment Officers can create posts for newly applying members using the data collected in the survey for those "new member" threads we used to have.
(if we are going to even have vote threads or however we are doing things this time, I guess they will let us know)

I intend to do some more data sorting to chart member time zone and playtimes.
It may prove useful to members for grouping in general or even finding a static that fits your playtimes.

The blank spots in the recording are where I was talking. Forgot I had that option checked in vent to where I can't be recorded. LoL. I brought up a point or two that Alto already discussed above. They were some sort of guild monthly due to help fund Bones' events and other things associated with the guild. I think my example was derived from FFXI where to do Dynamis (and instanced raid) you had to purchase an hour glass that cost 1 million gil to gain access to the instance. There was another point I believe but I can't remember at the moment.

I also called Damondo a pole jockey and said some other random stuff...ya.

I wondered why there were so many blank spots. I kept thinking the recording software was jacked up or something. LOL

Yup. No worries though, I went and unchecked the option so its all good now.

Alto wrote:
Meetings
Yes we should really get the business done at these meetings first, then some can leave if they need to, and the others can "bond" more afterward.

I have to agree with this 100%. Guild business should be kept to 15-30 minutes.

I'm the kind of person who only uses vent for business. Raids, heroics, meetings, get it done then the headphones come off. I will never get on vent just to chat. I guess I've been gaming too long, but it takes more energy for me to vocally speak than to type (I type 85 WPM). Something about the way I'm wired.

So, point is I get antsy when we start getting off-topic. Let's get guild business done (which I actually appreciated Teckis attempting to do at first, this time, until he started getting jokes about blowing through things too fast). Meeting is done, ppl are free to go. If others want to stick around and BS afterward, that's their option.

Also, I realize we're still in the planning stages, so I'll concede to frequent meetings, but in the future I think that anything more than once a month is too often.

Bookmarks
It was also mentioned, a request for some type of bookmarker system for the forums. One that automatically returned you to where you left off on a thread when you returned to it was specifically requested. I do not know if such a mod exists but I will look. Selyne may have a better answer to this, and also there may be one included in the next version of the forums software. A mod now until the new one comes out is preferred.

I actually have no idea what feature you're trying to describe, Alto? Can someone make this more clear? Is this something other forums have?

Dues
I think at first we need to operate like Divine did in Aion. That being those that want to contribute. Have those contributions recorded and posted to the forums.

After we see what the in game economy is like, and what we would actually need to save up for we can decide if the contributions need to be stepped up any.

Bottom line is, mandatory dues will cause some players to leave the guild. Anything that can be seen as unbalanced in the way guild funds are spent will cause others to leave as well. Basically we are playing FFXIV to relax and enjoy ourselves right? Instating anything that could lower the level of enjoyment a player has should be looked at very closely before going forward with it.

I agree with this 100%. The only guild I've ever played in that had mandatory dues was the Crusade of Shadows, and I was personally opposed to that. I would rather adopt a wait and see policy at this point.

As you'll later see, I'm not stingy by any means. I make potions and flasks for raids, I often put gear and items in the bank that I can't use as opposed to putting them on the AH. I will voluntarily contribute money when I have extra. But when someone tells me I HAVE to do it, that's when I become a big brat.

Now, as Sonadon said, getting Dynamis hourglasses were prohibitively expensive. If and when we see that there will be raid content that will require this kind of money, then sure, let's start saving up. But I'm leery about imposing a requirement before we even know what we're saving up for. We need to have a good reason for mandatory dues, IMO.

Events
Should be planned with a goal in mind, and first contributions should be used to achieve that goal. Event Officers can oversee asking for them, and managing them. After that we could split up the remaining costs if any remain. Events (for the most part) are things Everyone can attend and few will be limited by level requirement. I have no problem whatsoever helping to pay for that.

Wow, Alto and I are on the same wavelength. Again, I agree. =)

I was hoping the word 'mandatory' would not raise its ugly head here like it did in the Crusade of Shadows. Somehow things that are decided in meetings are later described as 'mandatory' when they weren't. To this day the only things that remain mandatory should be in the 'Guild Policies' section.

Those are the only ones where a serious infraction has occurred and might lead to someone's expulsion. Outside of that, I don't really see where 'mandatory' applies to anything we do, and it should be just a given of our long standing friendship that we trust that with each other.

As an example in CoS I had been talking about ventrillo was necessary to have a successful PvP raid. I never once said it was 'mandatory', and more than likely I never will....ever. Yet out of the blue came the accusation that I was making it mandatory, which is just not true. That ended up happening more than once, and I would think to myself, "Did I say the word 'mandatory' and didn't realize it?" Answer: No...I never said it or implied it.

Dues in Warhammer were part of the system that Mythic added into guilds. I suppose there was an option to stop dues, or allow a single person to not pay dues...I have no idea. Why do I have no idea? Because it was never brought up in guild council meetings. So it just happened, but it was never 'mandatory' and it was not stated in the guild charter as 'mandatory' either. Yet the implication came that dues were 'mandatory'. How many times did any of you bring it up in the council meetings?

Like here in DK, we are using vent for now, and I don't hear anyone complaining, or that it was ever decided that we will be exclusively using vent or not in the game. My point is that I don't feel we are being 'mandatory' with it, but it is being used as a tool to organize our new guild for FFXIV. I use ventrillo as an example here, and so goes it for dues, or resources, or whatever.

I would like to see the guild as a whole move away from implying things are 'mandatory' when they are not. We are suppose to be 'laid back' in our demeanor. If it truly is 'mandatory' then it should be stated in the 'Guild Policies' rather than loosely implied. If this problem persists, then I could see where over time it could be detrimental to the guild, and some will leave because we have not clearly defined it.

That is just my opinion though, and trust me when I say that I have learned my lessons about speaking out and then coming under fire for it. Even now, just for giving my opinion here will make me a target again I suppose, but it was a problem before and even though I thought it was handled, I could be wrong because here it is again. Can we please discuss it reasonably and then decide if some things are 'mandatory' or not so that we can get by this issue?

I liked the donation system used by Divine in Aion, in which people were encouraged to donate a minimum amount IF and WHEN they were able. Some donated far more. In fact I donated over a million Kinah to outfit our second guild so they wouldnt feel like second rate members - well worth the money for me.

P.S. Any idea why this thread is not being tracked in the latest posts?

Battlebones Horsekiller wrote:
That is just my opinion though, and trust me when I say that I have learned my lessons about speaking out and then coming under fire for it. Even now, just for giving my opinion here will make me a target again I suppose, but it was a problem before and even though I thought it was handled, I could be wrong because here it is again.

Oh, no! Fyre, hun, you're part of our family and your opinions are welcome! You should feel comfortable speaking your mind. And I hope you will continue to do so. =)

To be honest, if anyone here is going to be a target right now, it's me. I've been a little outspoken as of late. I'm afraid of sometimes sounding like a cranky B. >.<

I think much of what happened in the Crusade of Shadows is in the past and is water under the bridge. Sometimes we incorrectly tied the word 'necessary' to 'mandatory' in situations where that wasn't the intended meaning. I think in the case of Ventrilo use, it was because most of us already knew how valuable a tool it is. To have it reiterated as much as it was only left us wondering what the next level was. But there is no mistaking the fact that dues were mandatory, because we had taxes (or a tithe?) set by the guildleader. And that was the only reason I brought it up.

You're actually being a voice of reason, here, Fyre. I responded to Alto's post with a sort of kneejerk reaction. I didn't specifically remember anything said in the vent meeting about 'mandatory' dues, but it was late when I listened to it and anything Sonadon said wasn't recorded, so I second-guessed. I jumped to conclusions and assumed that mandatory was on the table because we were talking about it (though I think in reality, now, Alto was merely trying to explain what he didn't want to see by comparison). Apparently I was mistaken. And for that, I apologize.

I agree that anything that is indeed mandatory should be posted on the policies page. So let's be very careful in the future about not using that word lightly.

Jonn wrote:
P.S. Any idea why this thread is not being tracked in the latest posts?

It's also not showing up under the category. I'm racking my brain trying to figure this out.

Somehow the thread got screwed up.

So, I temporarily moved it. Then I forced the front page article to push over another thread. Then I moved it back, and merged it into the new one.

Problem solved.

I think maybe Alto was trying to figure out a way to get the article discussion to post in a different category.

There's a little bit of code you have to insert at the end of an article if you want to force it to create a post anywhere other than 'Game Discussion'.

{mos_fb_discuss:1}

Change 1 to the appropriate forum category number.

Thank you Selyne, I still agree that we have set things as water under the bridge and for me will remain that way, I think that was why I was a bit surprised that you brought it up. What I didn't say in my above post is that I do trust you and all the others to do and say the right thing when it comes to these problems. I actually don't want to bring any of them up from the past, but rather see DK deal with them a new and in the proper manner. I have the faith...

I'm in agreement that the donation system with a minimum amount that we used in Aion worked very well. I'd like to see that transferred over to Divine Kindred in FFXIV. The same reasons that I talked about in my other post in this thread apply. Again, as said several times in several posts...we aren't even in beta yet so hey, we should be open to any suggestions and thoughts we can come up with and share. The earlier and more we get gives us that much more time and options to choose from. Heck, I'd even go as far to say that no official decisions need to be placed in stone until about a month or so before Live launches.

I brought up what Sonadon mentioned in the meeting (sorry I guess you all didn't hear it because of his no recording issue) because the same reasons Selyne mentioned (as did Fyre) Dues by their very nature are mandatory.
They are the "cost of membership" in most cases, and I want us to try as best we can to avoid putting restrictions of this nature on the membership.

The same is true for:
I'm in agreement that the donation system with a minimum amount that we used in Aion worked very well.
There was no minimum as far as I knew? I donated at one time but others did not and some never did. That was fine, if you don't have it then what the heck...
but the term "minimum amount" implies mandatory.
So enuf about that. I just wanted to state I am against mandatory duesuntil we know we need them and they have restrictions on their use.


About this messed up thread...lol
Damondo posted the files to a thread.
Selyne and I had both already responded.
I hosted the files from the meeting at the server then made my news article for the front page (in the future I will not be putting the meeting mins. in a public area but for now with so many "checking us out" and considering coming into FFXIV as a part of DK I felt it OK for now)
After I made the news article it generated that Discuss in the forums button (which I pushed)
now I have a thread about the meeting and another thread with the responses.
so I merged them and moved the topic to the member only section (round table)
why it did not show up in the index I have no idea.
I still have some learning to do here it seems but I catch on quick.
Bookmark thingy
The forums at bixies automatically place a bookmark for you when you leave a thread. (even in the middle of a thread).
when you return to that thread it takes you right to where you left off and does it on a member by member basis. Teckis wanted to know if we could have our forums do that as well.
I defer to you on this as I am somewhat unfamiliar with the extensions available with Joomla/Kunea.

I don't want a mandatory monetary system either. I would like it to be all voluntary, with each person contributing what they can when they can. If the need ever arises that the guild needs more funds then the contributes can afford then we will address it at that time.

As for the word mandatory or usage of the word. I feel that it is really only key in two cases. Monthly Guild Meetings and If you are attending a Guild Event (which is not mandatory) and vent is a necessity, I want you in vent, if only just to listen..

Let's try and take the negative stigma away from the word. =)

Quick Point: It seems widespread use of ventrilo is a thing of the past for FFXIV. Reason being, many of our number will be playing the game via PS3 (which may not even be in the same room as their computer). This may be personal preference for some, but for others, it will be the only alternative they have since their computers are too old to render the game.

As such we need to adapt and come to grips with the fact that a large percentage of our membership will not be able to hear ventrilo and play at the same time. This provides an unforeseen obstacle we havnt had to deal with for awhile, so time to be thinking of alternatives.

To be perfectly honest, I am glad. I miss the old days when typing was our means of communication, and I could play in blissful quietness.



I do appreciate the strategic value of vent however.

Jonn wrote:
To be perfectly honest, I am glad. I miss the old days when typing was our means of communication, and I could play in blissful quietness.

Agreed.

As I've stated in the past, I only Vent for srs bznz. The rest of the time, I like typing and quiet.